Hey there - I finally had time to go back to the updated game (v3.4).
The bumped up difficulty is great and really gives the game a more strategic and high stakes vibe.
Ran into a bug though: a volcano erupted right beside me. I was standing in a forest tile. When the forest caught fire - and me too - the game crashed and became unresponsive.
Looking forward to it. By the way, have managed to get maybe 3-4 runs in since my last few comments, and the game balance is so good! I've died quickly all times, which I think goes to show the danger level is great! Sprinting to the altar feels good too, and gives a sense of urgency I think was one of the few points missing before.
Like it very much! Expanding is always welcome but as is I think it's great already.
One issue I have is geysers seem a bit 'overpowered' in the sense that they create vast ocean spaces too quickly. I'm not sure but would assume you can exploit that with the sea abilities too.
Maybe limit the geyser spread a bit? For thought...
Nice! Glad to hear you like the achievemets, that makes me want to expand uppon the system :))
And I agree, with geisers creating more geisers it quickly gets out of hand. Decreasing their spread or increasing the time between eruptions would probablt be good for balance.
I'm working on a pretty big update atm, where I'll be introducing a 'Favor of the Gods'-system. Where sacrifices are expected and ignoring the Gods results in more 'bad' events. Can't wait for it to be done! I think it'll add another dimension to the gameplay :))
Hey, was passing by to comment on update 3.0 (gave it a quick spin) and just saw 3.1 dropped. Exciting times - like the changes very much! Few of points to consider: - Snake visually was bugged to me once (tile was all white) - was the only time I saw it - I do like the idea of dangerous events being more common, which I see 3.1 has implemented - The Geyser event is neat! - Altar balance: Do they spawn more than 1 at a time? I think a key consideration to strategy is where the next altar is, especially if it's towards the left / VOID (vs. being on the right side). To make sure there are correct incentives score-wise for players to put themselves in danger to seek the altar, I think (a) the altars points should be much more significant than exploring points and (b) players should lose points AND be penalized by VOID closing in for letting altars be destroyed by the VOID or by other means (i.e. volcano, geyser). A UI note saying "the last altar was destroyed" would be nice. All these comments I think would work best if only 1 altar spawns at a time, with another one spawning if player either uses the altar or it is destroyed. And what this aims to do is make sure the endgame is about chasing altars dangerously, and not simply running from the VOID and slowly racking up points endlessly, with little challenge.
Anyways - sorry for the wall of text! Happy to hear what you think about the last point. I think it would really add to the 'balance' of high-scoring the game / making the "endgame" more interesting.
Congratulations again on the game and changes! Keeps getting better!
I'm happy you like the changes! And thank you so much for the feedback it means a lot!
*The snake bug i weird, I don't know why it happens, but I've seen it once as well... pretty strange. (I'll see if I can fix it)
I think your idea for balacing altars is great! Giving the player more insentive to hunt altars, and making that hunt the core of the game, is a good idea. Right now altars are spawned whenever the player moves 8 tiles (96 pixels) to the right, or when there are no other altars. They spawn at a distance of 23 tiles form the player, in a random direction (between -60 deg and +60 deg). All in all the current system is pretty random, and not that good (it was my first idea).
I will try your approach :D - Spawn only 1 altar at a time - Spawn a new altar when the current one is either used or destroyed by the VOID - Spawn the altars closer to the void, to insentivise a more risky playstyle - Give the player more points for claiming an altar - Punish the player for letting an altar be destroyed (move the void and give a warning message)
I'm not sure if I like the idea of subtracting points, hopefully giving more points at altars will be insentive enough.
Again thank you for the feedback! Your ideas are great and super helpful!
Happy to keep this discussion going, and super happy that ideas are useful!
I'll be looking forward to the updates and playing this new version in the meantime!
Btw, agreed on your comment re not subtracting points. My main concern balance-wise there was to create a system where a player would not be able / incentivized to wander right (away from the VOID) endlessly, after fully upgrading, and achieve a highscore this way - even if slowly.
I think a good way to approach this problem would be: to calculate how much missing an altar should speed up the VOID, in a way so that a player, even with the best upgrades, cannot outrun the VOID for too long without going for altars. These parameters might also be good ways of 'defining' how long the average session goes on for.
I've reworked the altar spawning system, so now there will only ever be one altar at a time. The altars also spawn closer to the VOID and will increase the chances of "bad" events if destroyed. Altars also give +500 points by default when "claimed".
I also added some new tile-variations. Now each tile has 3 looks as well as some decorative elements. Just to spice things up a bit.
All other changes are very minor: - Some new sound fx - New animation when dying - And probably some other minor tweeks that I forgot.... I should really start writing things down as I go
Great game! I think the idea and execution are very solid. Polish is incredible too. Some design suggestions + 1 bug report:
- I just got a game that went on for very long, and for this type of game, I believe you should strive for short and sweet sessions where losing is just around the corner (or else it gets repetitive and the player loses the will to think strategically due to fatigue). Being turn-based, this is especially true.
- I'm convinced ramping up the difficulty quicker will make the experience more enjoyable, increasing the feeling that every decision counts. This can be done is several ways (increasing 'bad events' spawn over time, ramping up speed of VOID quicker, adding more 'bad events', etc). To illustrate my point: the most fun I have in the game is when the VOID is near and I have to think carefully where to go next. When the VOID is far away and you are just chasing points, the game is the least enjoyable, in my experience.
- If you feel increasing difficulty might reduce enjoyment for more casual players, might be worth adding a "hardcore" game mode or similar.
- EDIT: Forgot to add the request to save game - perhaps this would be less important if games were shorter (see points above).
- When switching upgrades, if you hover over the old ones (to be switched out), their text is bugged in several cases (but not always).
Finally, congratulations on making such a clever little game. Looking forward to updates in case you plan on supporting the game further. Cheers!
I am currently working on an update fixing the difficulty curve, and I totally agree that the games go on for too long atm, and that the most fun is had close to the VOID.
The idea of multiple diffidulties is really good! I'll have to try it!
Thank you for finding the bug, think I found a fix :)
and Thank you so much for playing! I'm really happy you enjoyed the game :)
Thanks for getting back! Very nice to hear an update is in the works focusing on difficulty balance.
I do feel like the game has all the ingredients to be very replayable (more than most "jam" games) - the design choices are incredibly solid, with so many trade-offs and different resources at odds with each other.
I've given it some further thought so might as well share some ideas in case useful at all: - Adding additional "dangerous" events like the bear or volcano might be clever, as it would attack two fronts: increase difficulty + add greater variety. Plus, I think it is more interesting dying due to events than simply the VOID moving faster and faster - On the same point, new "dangerous" events could cause you to lose a random ability - this would be a new type of setback to deal with in addition to food and water - Since you have the coding in for "cycles", these could probably be used to tweak ramp-up of the VOID. This means being efficient from the start gives you an advantage, which is nice - Might be worth giving bonus points proportional to time you take to get to the next altar? This incentives sticking to the game's goal and finding the best path towards the altar. Speaking of altars, I'm not sure how many generate at once, but might be worth only 1 (or 2?) generate at once?
Finally, would highly appreciate you keep putting up Mac builds =) (I am more often on that) Cheers!
I am super greatful for your feedback! Great suggestions all around! The way the next patch tackles difficulty, is by decreasing the spawn-chance of some events the further you get, so especially food becomes more scarce, but "dangerous" events don't.
Having more "dangerous" events (snake, troll, geiser...) is a great idea, I might even increasing their spawn-chance over time :) For now I won't introduce anything that takes away upgrades, but it is definitely a good option, game-play wise.
Decreasing the spawn-rate of alters, while giving bonus points for finding them, is a good idea. I do feel they are a bit too easy to find and get to.
Also I will keep posting Mac builds :D I just hope they work! (have no way of testing them)
Very nice to see the updates dropping in! Will try and give it a spin sometime soon. Changes sound really promising to an already super solid game! Keep em coming (and Mac builds if possible xD). Cheers!
In my opinion I think the game should get harder the farther out you go, because for me the hardest part of the game is at the beginning which isn't what games usually do. My suggestion is that new biomes should start appearing as you get farther and they would have more difficulty. I really like the game and it definitely has potential.
Currently the difficulty is increased by lowering the spawn-chance of events the further you get. It's pretty difficult to balance the game but introduing new biomes is a great idea!
There's a bug where you can't leave the upgrade selection screen if you were already full, selected any upgrade but the last, and finally clicked on the last upgrade instead of replacing any other one.
I don't think so, Gatherer was never meant to be a commercial product, I created the game in 5 weeks, to challenge myself and to get something out there.
I would however like to do content updates, improve sound and add music.
And you never know, maybe some day I'll make it into a more fully fledged game :D
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Hey there - I finally had time to go back to the updated game (v3.4).
The bumped up difficulty is great and really gives the game a more strategic and high stakes vibe.
Ran into a bug though: a volcano erupted right beside me. I was standing in a forest tile. When the forest caught fire - and me too - the game crashed and became unresponsive.
Hey frocco!
Nice to hear from you again and I'm happy you like the changes!
I'm not sure what happened with the volcano.. and I'm sorry to say that I don't intend on updating the game anymore.
On a positive note; I have begun working on a completely new version of the game, so hopefully that will be out some time later this year :))
Sounds good! I'll let you know in case it happens again just so you know.
And cool - looking forward to your new release. Gatherer is a hidden gem!
Would love a Linux version
Dig the new game page! Any chance for an updated mac download?
Thanks! I'll get a mac version up tomorrow :))
Looking forward to it.
By the way, have managed to get maybe 3-4 runs in since my last few comments, and the game balance is so good!
I've died quickly all times, which I think goes to show the danger level is great! Sprinting to the altar feels good too, and gives a sense of urgency I think was one of the few points missing before.
Hopefully will be able to play more soon!
Hey frocco, I was just woundered, how do you feel about the Achievement system?
Would it be worth expanding upon?
Your feedback is always appreciated!
Cheers!
Like it very much! Expanding is always welcome but as is I think it's great already.
One issue I have is geysers seem a bit 'overpowered' in the sense that they create vast ocean spaces too quickly. I'm not sure but would assume you can exploit that with the sea abilities too.
Maybe limit the geyser spread a bit? For thought...
Nice! Glad to hear you like the achievemets, that makes me want to expand uppon the system :))
And I agree, with geisers creating more geisers it quickly gets out of hand. Decreasing their spread or increasing the time between eruptions would probablt be good for balance.
I'm working on a pretty big update atm, where I'll be introducing a 'Favor of the Gods'-system. Where sacrifices are expected and ignoring the Gods results in more 'bad' events. Can't wait for it to be done! I think it'll add another dimension to the gameplay :))
Hey, was passing by to comment on update 3.0 (gave it a quick spin) and just saw 3.1 dropped. Exciting times - like the changes very much! Few of points to consider:
- Snake visually was bugged to me once (tile was all white) - was the only time I saw it
- I do like the idea of dangerous events being more common, which I see 3.1 has implemented
- The Geyser event is neat!
- Altar balance: Do they spawn more than 1 at a time? I think a key consideration to strategy is where the next altar is, especially if it's towards the left / VOID (vs. being on the right side). To make sure there are correct incentives score-wise for players to put themselves in danger to seek the altar, I think (a) the altars points should be much more significant than exploring points and (b) players should lose points AND be penalized by VOID closing in for letting altars be destroyed by the VOID or by other means (i.e. volcano, geyser). A UI note saying "the last altar was destroyed" would be nice. All these comments I think would work best if only 1 altar spawns at a time, with another one spawning if player either uses the altar or it is destroyed. And what this aims to do is make sure the endgame is about chasing altars dangerously, and not simply running from the VOID and slowly racking up points endlessly, with little challenge.
Anyways - sorry for the wall of text! Happy to hear what you think about the last point. I think it would really add to the 'balance' of high-scoring the game / making the "endgame" more interesting.
Congratulations again on the game and changes! Keeps getting better!
I'm happy you like the changes! And thank you so much for the feedback it means a lot!
*The snake bug i weird, I don't know why it happens, but I've seen it once as well... pretty strange. (I'll see if I can fix it)
I think your idea for balacing altars is great!
Giving the player more insentive to hunt altars, and making that hunt the core of the game, is a good idea.
Right now altars are spawned whenever the player moves 8 tiles (96 pixels) to the right, or when there are no other altars. They spawn at a distance of 23 tiles form the player, in a random direction (between -60 deg and +60 deg).
All in all the current system is pretty random, and not that good (it was my first idea).
I will try your approach :D
- Spawn only 1 altar at a time
- Spawn a new altar when the current one is either used or destroyed by the VOID
- Spawn the altars closer to the void, to insentivise a more risky playstyle
- Give the player more points for claiming an altar
- Punish the player for letting an altar be destroyed (move the void and give a warning message)
I'm not sure if I like the idea of subtracting points, hopefully giving more points at altars will be insentive enough.
Again thank you for the feedback! Your ideas are great and super helpful!
Happy to keep this discussion going, and super happy that ideas are useful!
I'll be looking forward to the updates and playing this new version in the meantime!
Btw, agreed on your comment re not subtracting points. My main concern balance-wise there was to create a system where a player would not be able / incentivized to wander right (away from the VOID) endlessly, after fully upgrading, and achieve a highscore this way - even if slowly.
I think a good way to approach this problem would be: to calculate how much missing an altar should speed up the VOID, in a way so that a player, even with the best upgrades, cannot outrun the VOID for too long without going for altars. These parameters might also be good ways of 'defining' how long the average session goes on for.
Cheers!
Great suggestion as always! Hopefully I'll get a new version up tomorrow :))
Cheers!
Hey I saw a new update out but no blog post - just curious what the changes were (expecting to jump in this weekend) =)
Cheers!
Hey :)
I've reworked the altar spawning system, so now there will only ever be one altar at a time.
The altars also spawn closer to the VOID and will increase the chances of "bad" events if destroyed.
Altars also give +500 points by default when "claimed".
I also added some new tile-variations. Now each tile has 3 looks as well as some decorative elements. Just to spice things up a bit.
All other changes are very minor:
- Some new sound fx
- New animation when dying
- And probably some other minor tweeks that I forgot.... I should really start writing things down as I go
And thanks for checking in,
Cheers!
Great game! I think the idea and execution are very solid. Polish is incredible too. Some design suggestions + 1 bug report:
- I just got a game that went on for very long, and for this type of game, I believe you should strive for short and sweet sessions where losing is just around the corner (or else it gets repetitive and the player loses the will to think strategically due to fatigue). Being turn-based, this is especially true.
- I'm convinced ramping up the difficulty quicker will make the experience more enjoyable, increasing the feeling that every decision counts. This can be done is several ways (increasing 'bad events' spawn over time, ramping up speed of VOID quicker, adding more 'bad events', etc). To illustrate my point: the most fun I have in the game is when the VOID is near and I have to think carefully where to go next. When the VOID is far away and you are just chasing points, the game is the least enjoyable, in my experience.
- If you feel increasing difficulty might reduce enjoyment for more casual players, might be worth adding a "hardcore" game mode or similar.
- EDIT: Forgot to add the request to save game - perhaps this would be less important if games were shorter (see points above).
- When switching upgrades, if you hover over the old ones (to be switched out), their text is bugged in several cases (but not always).
Finally, congratulations on making such a clever little game. Looking forward to updates in case you plan on supporting the game further. Cheers!
Thank you so much for the feedback!
I am currently working on an update fixing the difficulty curve, and I totally agree that the games go on for too long atm, and that the most fun is had close to the VOID.
The idea of multiple diffidulties is really good! I'll have to try it!
Thank you for finding the bug, think I found a fix :)
and Thank you so much for playing! I'm really happy you enjoyed the game :)
Thanks for getting back! Very nice to hear an update is in the works focusing on difficulty balance.
I do feel like the game has all the ingredients to be very replayable (more than most "jam" games) - the design choices are incredibly solid, with so many trade-offs and different resources at odds with each other.
I've given it some further thought so might as well share some ideas in case useful at all:
- Adding additional "dangerous" events like the bear or volcano might be clever, as it would attack two fronts: increase difficulty + add greater variety. Plus, I think it is more interesting dying due to events than simply the VOID moving faster and faster
- On the same point, new "dangerous" events could cause you to lose a random ability - this would be a new type of setback to deal with in addition to food and water
- Since you have the coding in for "cycles", these could probably be used to tweak ramp-up of the VOID. This means being efficient from the start gives you an advantage, which is nice
- Might be worth giving bonus points proportional to time you take to get to the next altar? This incentives sticking to the game's goal and finding the best path towards the altar. Speaking of altars, I'm not sure how many generate at once, but might be worth only 1 (or 2?) generate at once?
Finally, would highly appreciate you keep putting up Mac builds =) (I am more often on that)
Cheers!
I am super greatful for your feedback!
Great suggestions all around! The way the next patch tackles difficulty, is by decreasing the spawn-chance of some events the further you get, so especially food becomes more scarce, but "dangerous" events don't.
Having more "dangerous" events (snake, troll, geiser...) is a great idea, I might even increasing their spawn-chance over time :)
For now I won't introduce anything that takes away upgrades, but it is definitely a good option, game-play wise.
Decreasing the spawn-rate of alters, while giving bonus points for finding them, is a good idea. I do feel they are a bit too easy to find and get to.
Also I will keep posting Mac builds :D I just hope they work! (have no way of testing them)
Very nice to see the updates dropping in! Will try and give it a spin sometime soon. Changes sound really promising to an already super solid game! Keep em coming (and Mac builds if possible xD).
Cheers!
Haha, I'll get the mac build up asap
In my opinion I think the game should get harder the farther out you go, because for me the hardest part of the game is at the beginning which isn't what games usually do. My suggestion is that new biomes should start appearing as you get farther and they would have more difficulty. I really like the game and it definitely has potential.
Currently the difficulty is increased by lowering the spawn-chance of events the further you get. It's pretty difficult to balance the game but introduing new biomes is a great idea!
Hopefully I'll find time for that soon :))
It is like a strategy games, this is looks like a 8 bit game! Very unique, i guess!
Rider is broken - 2 patches of grass giving 5 points each, 0 time, can walk circles for hours for near infinite score
Good point, balancing is a bit off, I'll try nerfing it :))
Edit: The Rider exploit has been fixed.
Cool game <3
There's a bug where you can't leave the upgrade selection screen if you were already full, selected any upgrade but the last, and finally clicked on the last upgrade instead of replacing any other one.
Thanks for the feedback! I'll try to fix it asap
Edit: The bug should be fixed
Hi, are you planning on developing this into a commercial product?
I don't think so, Gatherer was never meant to be a commercial product, I created the game in 5 weeks, to challenge myself and to get something out there.
I would however like to do content updates, improve sound and add music.
And you never know, maybe some day I'll make it into a more fully fledged game :D